DEDES AND MATTINGLY TALK (Jan. 2004)

II sit here with Stephanie playing a game of chess, watching Dark City,
making sketches of the collaboration we are working on together. She smokes
a cigarette, even though she claims to be a nonsmoker! Can we talk about
last night? Yes, we can, she says. So, you fell off your bike a few times
last night, right? She laughs that really big gapped-tooth grin, "Ohh,
Mary." then, "I drank A lot of wine."

MM: We have been in Holland for three weeks – do you think the environment
has influenced your art?
SD: Yes. I think it’s interesting. We started to go into that last night. You said you wanted to make bigger things and I just want to paint. I feel like people are doing big things, and you doing all this multi-media stuff, does make me want to make big things, but also makes me think a lot of painting.
MM: Yea, with all of this space, people are doing a lot of large sculpture
work. So how about the question I asked you?
SD: OK. What has influenced me the most so far, that I can see already, is, quite obviously, the landscape, the lay-out of the country: the cities and actual country. The fact that every piece of land in The Netherlands is designed, but also this very northern european sensibility. It really appeals to me, how orderly everything is, because it's so foreign to me. I spent a lot of time in Italy and Greece this past summer, and these countries are layed out more like my life, my rooms, a bit thrown together with contridictions in every corner and mountains all over, you know? Here it is so flat and to the point; everything is considered and put in its correct place. There is not much craziness at all, and this carries through to the people, which is something I was not expecting, knowing what a liberal and forward-thinking country it is. So, all of this, in mostly the visual sense is influencing me. I don't know how orderly my life will be
when I leave..
MM: Yea, people have so many freedoms here but overall it seems like a
rigid culture, just like their landscape. Peoples apartments mimic the
landscape as well - spotless and barren like a high-modernist cube with
Donald Judd shelving. I see why all German and Northern European
photography looks the way it does.
SD: Your hair looks good.
MM: Thanks! As I don’t wash it, it looks better. (I just dyed it a darker
color)
SD: Anyway, we were talking about this last night – what do you think the main difference is between European and American art?
MM: I think European artists now are, in general,a much more worldly view, much more work related to architecture of course, much more political workt, but I haven’t really delved into many peoples reasons for doing what they do – which I think is important to know to answer this question.
SD: Good answer.
MM: Thanks.
SD: So, we have been here three weeks… what influence has it had on you so far?
MM: Mostly the environment is influencing me, and listening to a lot of
BBC. The way people in Europe know a few different languages and kind of
lump them all together into a simplified unilanguage. The way that, the
more freedoms a culture has the more rigid it becomes, everything in life is
a reaction. That is how this place has more directly influenced me. But,
also, being in this place gives me the time to really consider what I’m
doing, and try to work through that, and accept that this is what makes me
happy at least. I have a chance to have a completely different lifestyle
here – no job, working on art all day, playing chess every night, living in
a place with a shared kitchen and scarce heat, meeting new people. The time
has made me face things I’ve been putting off and really consider and
reconsider everything I am doing, sift through all the bullshit.
SD: Is agenda important to your work?
MM: Good question…. This is something we’ve been talking about over the
past few days… I think so. I like agendas, schedules, reasons. I like to
think of solutions and answers to questions and I think it comes out, I
think it makes the work more meaningful to me and some of the people who see
it will respond to it in the way I think about it.
Do you think it’s important in your work?
SD: I think about this a lot. I would have to say that I don't have a specific agenda at the moment, like "I'm working on this project and these are specifications and this is what I want the viewer to think"; while I'm working, I think more along the lines of "I want this to look good" and recall certain things.
MM: What about the collaboration we have been doing together?
SD: I’m excited. That’s what I’m thinking… Specifically, I’m excited to make miniatures and put them in the sky, to make people look at these small things up above them – look at them with a forced tunnel vision. I want it to have a very displaced feeling to it. Also, this is giving me a chance to ‘make something big’ as we spoke of just earlier, while still painting. I wonder about how it will change my painting. What about you?
MM: Yes, I am interested in making a giant model – especially without the
constraints of making it look real. I’m very excited about putting little
references in there too – I like the labyrinth and butterflies and really
just anything we want to (as long as it conforms with our loose guidelines)
it is like putting everything we are interested in into landscape form and
then suspending it on a plane that allows someone only semi-access to see
it. We can put all of these secrets into it… So how do you feel about my general championship with chess matches?
SD: (Laughs.) I think it fucking sucks. I don’t like it. I don’t like it one bit. Um…I think it’s really good. I think you are teaching me a lot. I don’t remember it being about winning, Mary.
MM: Not to change the subject, but I am just noticing the drawing you are
working on while we talk – it is a pretty good drawing – what is it?
SD: My drawing is one of the new world. It is just some very loose ideas for our sculpture. We have to make a lot of drawings at all stages of this project. Next week I want to spend almost all of my time in the studio. Up until now I have felt that I’ve had to go out a lot (even though it has rained during almost all of our cold, waking hours) to kind of absorb these new surroundings – so I could get a bit of a handle on them. Now it is time to work.
MM: What do you think is so important about artists, and why do you think
we’re justified in talking about ourselves so much?
SD: Who says we’re justified? Ha! I think that artists are very important because we raise questions and attempt (sometimes succeeding, sometimes not) to answer them. We talk about ourselves because we’re just more interesting than other people! [Laughing by both parties]
MM: Lets talk about me for a second…
SD: Why do you think you should go first?
MM: Oh go ahead, go ahead…
SD: No, Ill be the bigger one, you go. SEX. Last night this boy I was talking to kissed me – and kept trying to kiss me. We thought he was saying all night that he liked to fuck – but he was really saying that he liked to fight…He was a fighter not a lover so I left him.
MM: Yea, those slight nuances in dialect…I wont reveal any (nonexistent)
crushes, but I can say I haven’t kissed any strangers at bars. And I’m
wondering why we don’t make more art about this stuff, about sex. I have a
plan to have this scene in the movie of some kind of new age sex –
survivalist sex, really not much fun. That is my contribution to evolution.
SD: People have made simulation sex machines – what do you think about these?
MM: You mean the suits you wear that are attached to the computer – two
people wear them and you can feel where the other person touches you on your
suit? That stuff? I think it is great – just think, it eliminates any
disease or hurt feelings, it doesn’t waste any time dealing with peoples'
emotions and you can just get right back to making art! We should all get
one! I wonder how much they cost?
SD: Yea, I guess I agree – to be serious for a second, I haven’t really even thought much about those pieces. I guess I like them all right. I think I like real sex – real as in ugly – not pretty – remember we decided?
MM: Yes, real really just means ugly. Ugh – that is gross. I don’t think
I can be in the same room with you…
OK we had this discussion before – in all honesty what do you think about
the statement "you are your art?"
SD: Well I don’t think it as definitive as that – maybe you are comprised of more – but I don’t think they can be separated. When you make art in your life, for your life – that is what you do. That is what you think, what you believe. So, if that is taken away, taken out of the picture – you’re kind of losing your leg to stand on. Maybe that isn’t coming out right. I think that when it is such a big part of your life – then it is a major part of what makes "you." And again they can’t be separated. Would you agree? (Mary finishes her drawing and titles it "Kiss of death kiss of chess … don’t let it go to your head now, I said.)
MM: Yea, I defiantly agree. If you keep them separate you are not an artist
by my definition. You may be a creator but to the same extent as someone
who makes things for his day job and doesn’t like it. Then he separates
himself from it. People make excuses a lot so they can justify the reasons
for doing something – for example (again something we talked about earlier)
a teacher probably doesn’t teach to "hope to just get through to one kid"
even though many times we hear this is why people teach. The same thing
with making art. Teachers hopefully teach because they like the subject,
they chose it, and if they get through to someone that is secondary.
SD: You sent out an email to nineteeneighty.com's mailing list about the speed of art and art-talk, and how art-star's and art-fashion are a product of this speed. So, I'm curious on your position to this specific globalization: do you think this is a problem? Can it, or should it, move slower? Do the pro's outweigh the con's?
MM: Well, first, I do think Globalism (in art or culture or anything) is
more of a problem than a solution. However, I am a pessimist and don't
think we can change the rapidity of the cycle of a new trend becoming big
fast and then dying off just as fast. For instance, the art media is so
expansive, it leaves many writers and critics constantly searching for new
topics, so the subject exhausts itself very quickly, and then it is time to
move on. I think that is where the talk of planning out art careers comes
in - the rules like "don’t show your work too much". It all depends on how
much you pay attention to it, really. If you pay too much attention you
notice its quick amplification of something and then its disappearance. Of
course the alternative to that is much better.
What is the hardest question we could ask each other (regarding art)?
SD: Style. Let's talk about our styles. I like whites - empty spaces.
MM: You have a very soft touch.
SD: I used to conbat that with bold colors - reds and greens, but havn't
been into it lately, maybe that is why I want to do the Fight paintings I'm
working on now - some sort of agressiveness. You like empty spaces too.
MM: In my life…or in my Soul?
SD: I meant your pictures.
MM: …Yes I like quiet, and moody. You turn people into shapes, and then you don’t think of them as people anymore. What do you think about that?
SD: Dude, your funny tonight. Anyway, I don’t really agree with the second
part of that, but I would say people and things are secondary to the
environment I'm creating.
MM: There is always a lot of tension in your paintings, whether it is
because of the way you painted the entire painting or the proximity of the
figures, or shapes (that you know are people) to one another.
SD: Yea, that's definitly right I would say. That is something that always comes naturally to what I am painting; whether I choose a certain photoghraph that has the tension already in it or it just happens as I paint. But this is something I always notice and play off of, and something that really appeals to me. You already mentioned this, but I"ll say it anyway - all of your work has a very distinct quietness to it. When I look at your photographs I really think that there are no sounds in that space. It is going to be very interesting to see how this carries over to the video you are making. You say that you don't think it will have the same quiteness?
MM: I think maybe quietness is about tension too - it is a tension within
me to want to be loud, but, for instance, all of my sculptures have very
muted colors and this is some sort of restraint maybe - this is the way I
see the world going but is not what I'm most attracted to. But in other
places I am loud. I think that most of the work I make is a balance of
opposing ideas, and that is what at times makes it quite - meeting in the
middle - or tense - you are not sure what to think. I think the video may
be less quiet because my thoughts will be more constructed - in script form,
and will be a clear narrative. The images will probably be as quite as far
as color but maybe the overall effect will be, I hope, more excitement and
frustration.
Speaking of constructed - every step of your process is very carefully
orchestrated and I think we should bring this up - when you are setting up
to paint, your pallett is very carefully arranged, everything is very clean
and your canvas has at least 5 layers of gesso, and then you are ready to
paint. But you are pre-planning the space, and eventually the painting
takes on a life of its own. Either in what you exclude from the photograph
or what you decide would be better. What do you have to say about this?
SD: Well, yeah (I can no longer hide this from you). But, mind you, this doesn't really carry over to any other facets of my life (mentioned above). (laughs). This gives me control, I suppose. I AM IN CONTROL.